View all episodes in this series
Mary Norris and Jane Caro: Why does ‘i’ come before ‘e’, except after ‘c’?
In the hierarchy of improbable things, a grammatical error in the pages of the New Yorker must certainly sit close to the top – and as copy editor at the notoriously fastidious literary institution, Mary Norris has been at the frontline of the fight against errant apostrophes for several decades.
In conversation with Jane Caro at The Interrobang, Norris shared the story of her ascendance to the throne of the comma queen. Beginning her working life as a ‘foot-checker’ at a public pool in Cleveland, Norris noted that her life has followed a classic ‘foot-checker to fact-checker/from toes to prose’ trajectory.
Contrary to popular belief, Norris admitted during the conversation, errors do slip into the pages of the New Yorker. Her first? Erroneously rendering ‘chaise longue’ as ‘chaise lounge’. An easy mistake to make, but it was an error that wasn’t readily overlooked. ‘Are the glory years of the New Yorker gone forever?’ asked a reader, in a typewritten letter that an elder copy editor made sure to circulate around the office. (‘They certainly are!’, the copy editor had made sure to scribble underneath.)
The New Yorker’s style guide is famously opinionated, sometimes obstinately so. ‘The Democrats coöperate to reëlect the President,’ Norris has offered, as an example of a sentence that could be found in no other magazine. Still, she told Caro, ‘When writers complain about the New Yorker style, I think, “You’re writing for the New Yorker; shut up”.’
Listen to the full discussion – featuring digressions into the battle between editors and writers in driving linguistic change, the dire need for a second person plural, the stylistic flexibility of the dash, and a meta-discussion on the interrobang. Bow down to the comma queen!
The grammar nerd inside me is in linguistic heaven right now. #askinterrobang— Will Dawson (@willegitimate) November 28, 2015
Who drives language change, people or editors? Mary Norris: Editors "are fucking backseat drivers." #askinterrobang— kate o'd (@readingkate) November 28, 2015
"Read, read, read, read and study a foreign language." Mary on how we can get kids to do grammar gooder #askinterrobang— kate o'd (@readingkate) November 28, 2015
Mary Norris is the author of Greek to Me and the New York Times bestseller Between You & Me, an account of her years in the New Yorker copy department. Originally from Cleveland, she lives in New York. Her favourite pencil used to be the Dixon Ticonderoga No. 1, but she now makes do with the Palomino Blackwing.
Jane Caro is an author, novelist, speaker, broadcaster, columnist, advertising writer and media and social commentator. She has published seven books, including two novels about Elizabeth Tudor. Her memoir, Plain Speaking Jane, was released in September 2015. She writes regular columns in the Sun Herald Sunday Life magazine, MT magazine and Mamamia Debrief Daily. She appears often in the media, including on the Gruen Transfer, Agony, Q&A, The Drum, Sunrise and Weekend Sunrise.